We are talking with Morten Olesen, Chief Consultant, and Peter Warming, Associate Senior Consultant of the Danish School of Public Administration (DSPA). Today, on May 14, they had a meeting with the Deputy Head of the Main Department of the Civil Service of Ukraine, Andriy Vyshnevskiy, and experts of the School of Senior Civil Service, where spheres of possible cooperation between the DSPA and Ukrainian institutions have been discussed. 

Please tell me about the Danish School of Public Administration, its history and mission.  

Peter:Danish School of Public Administration was founded in 1969. The basic mission of the school is to train civil servants. We have a principle in Denmark which is life-long training for civil servants, meaning that when you leave university and then begin your public career as a civil servant, the university education is not enough, you can’t count on what you learn at a university for your entire career. So training is an extremely important element in Denmark for civil servants. The Danish School of Public Administration is not the only one, but a major provider of training for civil servants in Denmark. 

Morten: I can add that in the department where we work we do leadership training in Denmark as well as international consultancy and training projects. Broadly speaking, we cover all areas of public administration reform. To give an example, for the past five years, in Bosnia and Herzegovina we have been supporting the  Directorate for European Integration in formulating the strategy for upcoming membership in the European Union.  

What projects would you like to implement  in cooperation with the School for Senior Civil Service and the Main Department of the Civil Service of Ukraine?   

Peter: First, our job is mainly to listen very carefully to your specific wishes. I have said before that we have been here in Ukraine a couple of times. From the visits, from meetings and discussions we understand that training for top level civil servants is a very high priority of the MDCSU. And we believe that with Danish example we can offer to you something that is very useful. In particular, we are thinking about the fact the School of Senior Civil Service does not have to follow strict rules as the National Academy of Public Administration. The School is not a university and does not have to follow the curriculum developed by the Ministry of Education or by the Cabinet of Ministers, but you can develop your own training programmes for top civil servants. We have regular training for this in the Danish School of Public Administration, and we believe that we have a lot to offer you in this regard.  I think that training for leadership, for top level civil servants will be a priority number one. But also other kinds of training activities which would be under the auspices of the MDCSU will be of interest too.

Morten:I think one thing that was mentioned the first time we were here in Ukraine was that civil servants needed easily applicable training. They needed a practical toolbox they could apply in their work after training. Such training didn’t exist. Basically the problem in Denmark was exactly the same, and our training program was developed in response to the need for more practical training. We will try to come up with programmes assimilated to the needs of Ukraine.

You’ve mentioned you are not for the first time in Ukraine…  

Morten: Yes, it is my third visit to Ukraine.  Peter: For me it is already the sixth visit. The first time I was here in 1999, and I remember this very clearly. Millennium change and possible fallout of computers were a hot topic. After that, I had a pleasure to be here a number of times to prepare training projects and to inform about the Danish School of Public Administration.   

What challenges Ukraine’s civil service faces? What do you think Ukraine’s civil service can learn from Danish experience?  

Morten:I think the first challenge Ukraine’s civil service faces, and it’s not specific only to Ukraine, but this was the first factor we noticed, is definitely a high turnover of civil servants. I think it is on average 20%, and 50 % in election years. I think another challenge is that there is no clear separation between professional civil servants and politically appointed civil servants. 

We are suggesting here to look into the response of Denmark to the training needs of civil servants. We are not suggesting making a copy of Danish experience, we suggest inspiration to create a sort of Ukrainian version. The point I am trying to make is that it should not be a Danish version of training in Ukraine, it should be a tailor-made Ukrainian version. 

Peter:I would like to comment to the third point, and my comment is based on the discussions we have had with many people here. Training offered generally, not only to top civil servants, but also for all civil servants should be remodeled. It should be more hands-on training for civil servants. We have been witnessing training for civil service here, but we understand that much of education and much of the training provided is very theoretic and taught by elderly professors who hardly ever happened to work in the public sector and who teach by books that have been written many years ago and not adequate to the reality of today.  So, that I think would be true challenges that we see here.  

 Thank you very much for the interview.